Israel was totally swindled and bamboozled. The words "thirty" and "forty" are not in the original Hebrew. But it does not say so here in so many words. Ezekiel 18:19-20 Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' I want you to understand where Barry was coming from in writing the note. You had to go up quite a bit. During the time of the judges, the Israelites had repeatedly turned away, leaving them corrupt and faithless. The famine was a punishment for Sauls violation of the covenant, made with the Gibeonites back during the days of Joshua. Webzeal of king Saul - who was a Benjaminite - against the Gibeonites. Why didnt Abraham bargain with God when it came to Isaac being offered as a burnt offering like he did when it came to Sodom and Gomorrah? Matt 24:4/Mk 13:5/Lk 21:8. This is like offering them reparations for what Saul had done, and they replied that it was not good enough. WebWhen Sauls agents came up, she pretended that David was ill and placed a household idol and a net of goats hair in his bed, as if her husband were still lying there (vv. There were no cell phones. So, it is very likely that these men were murdered both as retribution and as sacrifices to some pagan god to spite the God of the Bible, and therefore, Israel. That is that he could have gone along with the Gibeonite's demands in order to get rid of seven possible contenders for his throne. They were a group of Amorites. Such a shame to destroy it all! We do not know when it happened. But, are these people telling the truth? And David was told what Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, the concubine of Saul, had done. Because of what had been going on, all the turmoil in this life and the kingdom, David was not spiritually prepared to face it. Even though the avenger of blood could kill the person if he caught him before he arrived at the city of refugewhat this verse is saying, here, is that if the nation follows through, and enlarges the lands by obeying God, He will designate more cities of refuge so that they are closer. II Samuel 21:3-6 Therefore David said to the Gibeonites, "What shall I do for you? Nearly two-thirds of American professing Christians believe that their Savior sinned. ", "She's been doing that for six months? Spiritual virtues and qualities are largely unseen yet are more real and potent in lasting effects than the most formidable nuclear pile. The second is at the end of verse 2, that "Saul had sought to kill them in his zeal for Israel and Judah." Why is it just now that you are waking up to this? He wanted to go do something else. He needed God to forgive him. When did Saul kill these Gibeonites? He just let the natural cycles take their course. Only in one sense, there was a fall of man, but certainly not in the traditional sense. Scripture has said this explicitly. It would be the equivalent of an event somewhere between the Korean War and the Vietnam War. 2. Except for verse 21, there is very little mention of God in the whole episode. "No, we don't do things like that in Israel. Perhaps he thought, "Hmm. The Gibeonites take the young men and essentially lynch them, leaving the bodies of Sauls sons and grandsons to rot, exposed and humiliated in the presence of God at a local shrine. Then David went and took the bones of Saul, and the bones of Jonathan his son, from the men of Jabesh Gilead who had stolen them from the street of Beth Shan, where the Philistines had hung them up, after the Philistines had struck down Saul in Gilboa. Then they went back and took Ai. WebA famine lasting three years hit Israel during the earlier half of David 's reign at Jerusalem. Deceit and delusion are powerful spiritual weapons of destruction but they pale in potency compared to the creative and edifying Word of God come alive by faith in believers' hearts! Over the years I've urged our Fellowship to check out, investigate and take to heart such biblical alarms. But so did David. What might he have done? Why were two of Saul's sons and five of Saul's grandsons killed for a crime they didn't commit? Verse 5 does not say that the guilt of a person extends to his great-great grandchildren. Had David been righteous and been crying out to God, God would have heard him. That is basically how it was. It is tainted.". Why are they where they were? God required atonement to be made. It comes as a snare, Christ says, on everybody. Or as the King David came at it from a position of weakness, not of one who knew God's law and could answer these people from spiritual strength. That is the background on the Gibeonites, and their relationship with Israel. This is a bit unusual. Community answers are sorted based on votes. God said explicitly to destroy everything! By deluding himself that he could solve any problem; by presuming that the end justifies the means; by deliberately countermanding clear and specific orders from the Most High God; Saul not only failed to remove an evil people from the land, he also guaranteed the ultimate destruction of his own family. He decided to let the Gibeonites dictate everything. (Now the Gibeonites were not Israelites, but a remnant of the Amorites. We would like to make a covenant with you.". The Israelite version was a whole lot less absolute. Instead, David brings back twice as many. It provides the cities of refuge where he could go serve a type of prison sentenceif it was an accidental murderuntil the high priest died. Should the explanation in Genesis on how God created plants before the sun affect the understanding of creation? Asked August 31 2013 They fell for it hook, line, and sinker, and they were stuck. The scriptures are not very definitive as to why. When we read the history of skirmishes and battles between the Gibeonites and Israelites we get a Now the Gibeonites were not of the people of Israel but of the remnant of the Amorites. We can't withstand them. In effect, what they wanted to do was hang the bodies of Saul's family in Saul's hometown in sight of Jerusalem. It won't do anybody any good lying here dead. We still need some more background. Notice the timing and the manner of the execution. After that, they had their problems at Ai, and figured out that Achan was responsible for that. They did not ask, "God, what should we do to these people, the Gibeonites? Report According to a May 2007 George Barna Poll, 63% of Americans, mostly professing Christians, believe that Jesus sinned during His physical life! He sees the hearts of men and the hidden actions of men. But the consequences of their sinswhat it means to us; what happened because of their sinstill affects us today. He does not live long past the end of II Samuel. Pagan cultures were killed because they were pagan cultures and they were making war on Gods people. Therefore, the world is full of sintheir own sin. The rains did not come after the Days of Unleavened Bread when these seven men were executed. WebMany centuries later (the period from the exodus of Israel to the reign of Saul is generally considered to be about 400 years), Saul came to the throne in Israel. There is a very important difference. And it happened at the end of three days, after they had made a covenant with them, that they heard that they were their neighbors who dwelt near them. In 1 Samuel 10, Saul first tries to kill David by straight up pinning him to the wall with his spear, but David dodges twice. The Israelites had been dealing with the Gibeonites, who were Hivitesand as it says here, they were a part of the Amorite peoplesince the first days in the land under Joshua. WebDavid serves Saul with music on his harp Nov 24, 1025. Their representatives were not up front with the Israeli leaders. Some unfinished business here needs to be taken care of. Sheba's rebellion is in the previous chapter, II Samuel 20. September 01 2013 King David is mentioned by name as a hero of faith. God punished Adam and Eve for their sin. ", So David went out and said, "There are some things that have needed to be done. This has become known as the "eye for an eye principle." They made their dust-covered clothes to look worn and ragged as if they had been on the road for many days, even months. David did not come to this with any regal neutrality in the least. (Matthew 14:1921). There is demotion. However, if they did not participate, they are not going to be given a black mark by God for something that they did not do. The world's arsenal is growing daily in material strength and sophisticated intimidation. If the Gibeonites brought guile and deceit into the land; it was Saul who set the example for deep and devastating delusion. In 2 Samuel 21:1-14, we see that Saul committed an awful crime, and this caused famine in Israel. If a person sins, he receives God's judgment for those sins. In reading the Psalms, on the other hand, we get an idea of just how grateful he was for God's forgiveness and grace, because I believe he was aware of just what a rotten individual he really was. God took the initiative in this matter, by afflicting the nation of Israel with a famine because the house of Saul had put the Gibeonites to death. The Bible barely alludes to the king's mad scheme, but we know that Saul's plot miserably failed. There are references to the Lord, but they are not references in a spiritual sense. Before she married David, Abigail had been the wife of _____. persecuted and killed the Gibeonites men in a covenant relationship with Israel who served at the tabernacle. How many wars were fought? And they took old sacks on their donkeys, old wineskins torn and mended, old and patched sandals on their feet, and old garments on themselves; and all the bread of their provision was dry and moldy. 20, and still another between Saul and David in 1 Samuel 24. They were probably in middle age, 45-60. All I do know is that they do hold a solid place in world history and one of their offshoots or branches were the Gibeonites. he put the Gibeonites to death. Why did God allow the Gibeonites to put to death seven of Sauls sons? But Joshua had the final decision. Web11 Then the king sent for the priest Ahimelek son of Ahitub and all the men of his family, who were the priests at Nob, and they all came to the king. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. God punished the whole nation for breaking the covenant. And Samuel says, "See? Evidently, this is what Saul and most of his family was like, except Jonathan. We have our own sins to pay for; we do not pay for theirs. Oh, fear the LORD, you His saints! Guilt for sin is not hereditary. The Gibeonites deceived Israel, but God's people had really deceived themselves. Therefore David said to the Gibeonites, "What shall I do for you? It is the time of the beginning of the barley harvest. This incident of the famine took place rather late in David's life. The Gibeonites were a very shrewd bunch of people. by LeRoy Gardenier ( v.1 ) So God sent a famine to punish a kingdom for something that a former king supposedly did. David then goes to Gibeonites and asked to make amends. Why so? So the famine continued for another half a year. Israel and Judah," who may have fretted at the inconvenience of having the Gibeonites among them. Perhaps the Scriptures are contrasting the faithless actions of Saul and his house in regard to the covenant with the Gibeonites, with the faithful actions of David in regard to the covenant with Jonathan. It certainly happened because it says there in verses 1 and 2 that Saul killed a lot of Gibeonites at some point in his reign. As mentioned earlier, there was the rebellion of Absalom. Report, August 29 2022 Moreover, the Gibeonites who survived remembered, and they wanted blood when they were asked. Saul, after having disqualified Share And that day Joshua made them woodcutters and water carriers for the congregation and for the altar of the LORD, in the place which He would choose, even to this day. There are so many things I have got to do.". Saul's bones are still in Jabesh-Gilead. He will not relent. There are things like destruction for their sin, and the family takes that long to recover from that destruction. They have a discussion in the next few verses, and many Israelites want to go ahead and kill these Gibeonites for what they did. God did not perform a miracle to end this famine after these men were executed. And then King David inquired of the Lord. This was history now. Joshua and that generation did not do their entire job, and so they were stuck. He gets kicked down the societal ladder for his sin, and it takes three or four generations for the family to recover. The people of the land stand for our spiritual enemiesour human nature, this world, and Satan the Devil. Davids choice of victims reflects at least the covenant between him and Jonathan, if not also the one between him He was endangering the whole army by being out there, an old man trying to fight like a young man. Throughout the centuries, the original Gibeonites continued to exist as a people, although King Saul schemed to destroy them. The Gibeonites, howev Leviticus 26:18-20 And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. 1 Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. We are not finished with that yet, because, who were the Gibeonites? Numbers 35:29-33 And these things shall be a statute of judgment to you throughout your generations in all your dwellings. They engaged in battle, and Israel won, but the people and king Saul said, "Look at all this nice livestock! So David asked the Lord for help, and the Lord answered, Saul and his family are guilty of murder, because he had the Gibeonites killed. Then they replied, It was Saul who planned to destroy us, to keep us from having any place at all in Israel. After 7-10 years of war, David has solidified his empire Mar 2, 2022. He could have done whatever he wanted. This is interesting. If we were reading this quickly, and not really thinking about it, and not understanding God's own character, we might think that this says that God allows the guilt of sin to pass down three or four generations. But, the big thing was that he did not consult God about what he should do about it. God told Joshua to get rid of all these foreigners in the land. Finally the light came on, and David said, "I had better ask what is going on here. This is in the second commandment. He was tired, and wanted to get it out of the way. What have they done? Matt 24:4/Mk 13:5/Lk 21:8. If, in the event the Israelis ever came their way, they would be servants to the people of Israel. And the king said, "I will give them." Moreover, Samuel said, "What have you done? He received good marks in Scripture. Joshua 9:14-16 Then the men of Israel took some of their provisions; but they did not ask counsel of the LORD. And David sought the face of the Lord. You might say a whole cycle of generations. But they refused the offer. BATTLE AGAINST ENVY AND JEALOUSY He came at this as though he were guilty with Saul; that all Israelites were guilty with Saul and his house. This was a long time ago. All answers are REVIEWED and MODERATED. A person dies for his own sins, not those committed by someone else, whether father, son, or black sheep uncle. The Bible doesnt really say. This is taken from the book Antiquities of the Jews, pg. 7: AFTER this, when the country was greatly afflicted with a Saul and the heir to the throne, his son, Jonathan, were killed in a battle with the Philistines, and by popular acclamation, David became the King of Israel. * 1 Samuel 18:12 KJV And Saul was afraid of David, because the LORD was with him, and was departed from Saul. * 1 Samuel 18:15 KJV Wherefore when S Yes, my lord, he answered. Is that what happened?" Now, turn to the episode of King David, which we introduced. WebWhen God called Saul to be king, Israel was on the verge of collapse. But the king spared Mephibosheth the son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, because of the LORD's oath that was between them, between David and Jonathan the son of Saul. As Christians living amidst spiritual famine, we dare not compromise with the culture around us. I Samuel 14:52 Now there was fierce war with the Philistines all the days of Saul. "There's something rotten in Denmark," as the saying goes. King Saul exhibited that hubris, that overweening pride in his own decisions and that unfounded confidence in his own good judgment that he brought certain and lasting disaster upon his own dynasty. When the Gibeonites heard that the other nations were going to attack them, they sent a message to Joshua and the people, Help! The angel of the LORD encamps all around those who fear Him, and delivers them. Now Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth and spread it for herself on the rock, from the beginning of harvest until the late rains poured on them from heaven. They looked to Him and were radiant, and their faces were not ashamed. They decided to fight with the Gibeonites and teach them a lesson. I will break the pride of your power; I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze. Their special, if dishonest, dealings with the leaders of Israel gained them a notoriety that most of the tribes and clans of the ancient Mid-East never attained. How many rebellions were there? The person who commits a sin is guilty of that sin, and God punishes that person for that sin. Let me ask God about this. They got a couple of their men, maybe elders, and got them to appear like they came along distance. I think he was looking at Adonijah and Solomon, and seeing the positioning for the throne, and he just wanted to throw up his handsflee like some bird (Psalm 139). WebThe Gibeonites Hang Saul's Descendants 21 While David was king, there were three years in a row when the nation of Israel could not grow enough food. WebVetus Testamentum 24:1 (January 1974):1-7.] WebThe Philistines decided not to attack D. God gave Saul three options to choose from as he went out against the Philistines. Psalm 34:4-10 I sought the LORD, and He heard me, and delivered me from all my fears. Another group, however, argues that as God's anointed king, Webdid mika hakkinen win a championship; cosmic casino no deposit bonus 2022; natwest financial calendar; south bay christmas events; when did saul slew the gibeonites. King Saul would conscript them into the army, and off they would go in a bloodthirsty rage against somebody else. It is very evident from verse 4 that somebody offered money, either from the palace or from the family of Saul. We are talking about the possibility of only two of the seven even remotely having any guilt in this matter whatsoever. But Abishai the son of Zeruiah came to his aid, and struck the Philistine and killed him. In fact, look down to verse 15, II Samuel 21:15-17 When the Philistines were at war again with Israel, David and his servants with him went down and fought against the Philistines; and David grew faint. The "Great Debate" between Nixon and Kennedy had not occurred yet. My supposition is that he may have been still questioning God about the way his reign seemed to have crumbled, and all he had was enemies around him. He then tells David that he can't marry Michal until he brings Saul 100 Philistine foreskins, thinking that David will definitely die in this attempt. The Gibeonites left their mark on Israel's history in another wretched incident involving He resolved properlynot without a lot of death, with 70,000 dead in that plague, but at least he had the repentant attitude by the time it was over. At the time the Israelites under Joshua invaded the Promised Land of Canaan, most of the inhabitants rose up in arms against them. Psalm 34:17-18 The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears, and delivers them out of all their troubles. (4:10). Most people living in modern, Western culture better identify with flawed heroes, rather than perfect heroes. David may have begun to think about this now, "What is going on here? Joshua 9:14 is the key to Israel's problem. "We don't want any money, for sure not Saul's money. Go back with me to Deuteronomy 7 and see the instruction that God gave to Israel about how to deal with these kinds of people. Does the Bible encourage the practice of Lent? Report. I don't know a great deal about this particular segment of those biblical people called the Hittites. It does not seem so. He says that He visits the iniquity upon them. And when Saul saw any strong man or any valiant man, he took him for himself. 4. King David, for example, made huge errors in judgment and committed colossal sins. He gives them exactly what they want, and look at what happens. The last time Saul did swear not to kill David, Saul swore "by YHWH" not to kill david he broke it many times over since. There were no conditions. How much food did Jesus produce? A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he. He allowed his actions to be dictated by the Gentile principle of retributionvengeancerather than God's law on such matters. Why was David so loyal to Saul after everything Saul had done to him? Much later, King Saul ignored this covenant of peace and killed some Gibeonites. If you read Psalm 51 it is very clear that he understood his own makeup. Seven of Sauls descendants were hanged as a result. It is very clear, and very simplejust two little verses. Jamieson, Fausset and Brown comments: It was a heathen practice to gibbet men with a view of appeasing the anger of the gods in seasons of famine, and the Gibeonites, who were a remnant of the Amorites, though brought to the knowledge of the true God, were not, it seems, free from this superstition. Even their empty wine skins were completely dried up and cracked. I do not know if that was the case, but he had just gone through Absalom's rebellion, and Sheba's rebellion, and maybe he allowed that to cross his mind too. THE STORY OF JOSEPH - These curses are things like diseases that might affect genetics, and they came as the result of sin. It is easy to read this story blithely, and to think that David righted some longstanding wrongs that had happened, and then God happily sent rain to the parched land of Israel. It does not matter. The two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul ( v.8 ) 0 responses Then Gibeon was a mile or two more to the north-northwest. Probably what happened was that they put them on the top of the hill at Gibeah, so that God in the Tabernacle could "see" the execution being done. So, give or take, 40 to 50 years have passed. He apparently killed Over the years I've urged our Fellowship to check out, investigate and take to heart such biblical alarms. It wouldnt be surprising if these people had become worshippers of God, from their exposure to the tabernacle and teaching. Then we have the explanations of which we just went over. In 2 Samuel 21, we read of the tragic repercussion that followed when King Saul didnt honor the covenant and murdered some Gibeonites. Then there are things of degeneracy. Why did he not seem to notice the first year and say to himself, "Hmm. So they fell, all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest. You do not know. lorraine goode. It springs out when you are not ready. There is not much wiggle room in all this. The Bible tells us that after Saul's death God sent a famine into the land mainly to get the attention of Saul's successor, King David. Jonathan and Saul led the WebThe biblical writer confirms this charge by stating that Saul tried to annihilate [ nkah, to inflict a dead blow] them (2 Sam. Therefore, they arrive in the camp of Israel, and say, "Where's your leader? They agree to the death of seven of Saul's descendants. In some ways, the story centers around covenants or treaties, one made between Israel and the Gibeonites in Joshua 9, another between Jonathan and David in 1 Sam. The Bible implicitly hints at something which caused a feud which was settled only by the blood of Sauls descendants. And the Lord said, There is bloodguilt on Saul and on his house, because he put the Gibeonites to death. 2 So the king called the Gibeonites and Things were going wrong. God has torn the kingdom from you. So they answered Joshua and said, "Because your servants were clearly told that the LORD your God commanded His servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy all the inhabitants of the land from before you.". I think that this was a test from God, and David failed spectacularly, except in keeping his promise to Jonathan. A lot can happen in two years. He was distracted. Saul and the Pharisees persecuted and killed the Christians, The sons of King Saul were killed as a result of this attempted genocide, The non-Christian inhabitants of Jerusalem were destroyed in AD70 Gods judgment on them for murdering his son and doubtless, the early Christians. What is the meaning of the parable of the rich man and his manager? Because David had been good friends with Jonathan, he at first allowed all of Sauls family to continue to live peaceably in the land. They had remembered it for 40 or 50 years. The Bible helps us in this way, because it is full of examples of flawed heroes of faith. It is not the sin of Adam and Eve; it is their own sin. But certainly, David was. The Gibeonites actually lived only a few miles from Jericho, the Twelve Tribes' designated entry point to Palestine. What we do inherit of their sin is consequences. He just let them walk all over him. David represents usJoe Church Membertrue Christians in a time of spiritual famine, much like what Amos describes in Amos 8:11, with the famine of the word. Clarify It shows you just how far things had sunk in the land. How do other hominoids (e.g homo erectus, homo neanderthalensis, etc.) God tells us that, spiritually, we have to go and wipe them out. That would be such a carnal thing to dojust let the Gibeonites kill seven of Saul's kids who could claim the Israelite throne and get them out of the way.
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